[Papervision3D] away3d

Sat Dec 22 18:09:04 PST 2007

Hey Ralph

Oh dear. I thought i'd just resolved this with Tim and then look what we've
got now...

You are saying you are offering a solution to people's problems and that
> this so happens to be Away3D. This is untrue, which is proved by looking
> at the tiling discussion; here your answer was: we are working on it in
> Away3D. Meaning, it's not there.

Yes. If you look closely, you will see i am responding to a question asking
whether there are plans to put tiling into Papervision. This had gone
unanswered for a week, and it just so happened we were working on an
implementation in Away3d that day. Why is that response considered
inappropriate?

Btw, since 2.0 we switched to doing all our development in the public SVN,
> in true OS style....when can we expect that of away3d ? I consider it a
> fault on my side that we ever did it closed, it's not very OS at all. Why
> the secrecy ?

so, what your saying here is you are open with your development when it
suits you. ;) Come on, you know very well the reason why development
sometimes needs to be private: You get far too many people downloading your
half finished work and then emailing the list asking why it doesn't work and
what they can do to fix it! Its not secrecy, it's just simpler.

This is the Papervision3D list. If you take it as a general list, you are
> wrong. It's the biggest list within the Flash 3D realm, but that doesn't
> really make it yours to decide what it is. We are still list owners, and the
> list is created for Papervision3D developers.

I'm not taking this as a general list. I am taking this as a list about 3d
in Flash. Like i said to Tim, the majority of people here are most likely on
this list because that is their interest too, and Papervision is all they've
heard of. I also mentioned that conversations such as this shouldn't really
be made on list as they are off topic, so what do you think this list is
for?...

I took grace in not mentioning that people when using Away3D would at this
> point loose all capabilities of smooth shading, render to texture,
> multiviewport, 3d animation, etc....

they would also lose the fact that it is an unstable alpha release. Let's
not get ahead of ourselves here ;)

A tip. Any good product atracts users by itself. Marketing helps, but what
> this is reminds me of the telemarketeers calling me during dinner. There's
> more elegant ways to sell a product. I could tell you all about why
> marketing this way doesn't work, but you probably know that yourself.

oh dear. In some rare cases this is true, but in real life this is so often
not the case and you must be aware of that. Look at Betamax and VHS, Apple
and Microsoft, Firefox and IE. It's beside the point however, because i'm
not trying to sell anything! Open source is about sharing, not selling.

And anyway, shouldn't you be working on Away3D instead of sending emails ?

I would be, but it's christmas. Aren't developers allowed a few days off?

have a good one and i'll pick this up after the holidays ;)

Rob

On Dec 22, 2007 7:23 PM, Ralph Hauwert < r.hauwert at gmail.com> wrote:

> Rob,
>
> I see where you coming from and I partially agree; we are all here to
> better the spirit in the community. But...your answers are flawed at a
> couple of points.'
>
> 1. You are saying you are offering a solution to people's problems and
> that this so happens to be Away3D.
> This is untrue, which is proved by looking at the tiling discussion; here
> your answer was: we are working on it in Away3D. Meaning, it's not there. So
> it's not a solution you are offering at all, it's a product plug/promise;
> Away3D as picked up by the user right now does NOT offer a tiling solution.
> So I fail to see how you are helping anyone with that answer. Hey, even I
> have been working on tiling, but it's not in our svn, since it wasn't
> perfect yet. Btw, since 2.0 we switched to doing all our development in
> the public SVN, in true OS style....when can we expect that of away3d ? I
> consider it a fault on my side that we ever did it closed, it's not very OS
> at all. Why the secrecy ?
>
> 2. This is the Papervision3D list. If you take it as a general list, you
> are wrong. It's the biggest list within the Flash 3D realm, but that doesn't
> really make it yours to decide what it is. We are still list owners, and the
> list is created for Papervision3D developers. I don't see Sandy posts here
> everyday, as we don''t post to theirs. I know I had a little fun with you
> guys when we released the shaders exactly because of this. I posted to your
> list. saying we actually do have shaders... I did it back at ya! And well
> deserved if I might say so. We've had a couple of you guys on this list over
> the last couple of months to post "away3d" can do this....away can do
> that.....I took grace in not mentioning that people when using Away3D would
> at this point loose all capabilities of smooth shading, render to texture,
> multiviewport, 3d animation, etc....
>
> 3. If you really want to help people with your posts, I saw several of
> your post could've been answered with Sandy3D instead of Away3D; it's cool
> if your biased, which I understand from your pov, but don't act under the
> pretense of discussing "general3d". when you are not giving the full
> picture. To really answer a persons question isn't saying "hey, throw away
> (what's in a name) all the work you had by so far and start all over again
> with another engine, with a different premise". Also, you fail to mention
> what features will be lost during that switch...not sure what you are trying
> to accomplish with helping people like that. "Yes, it's because you are
> driving a [car brand X]. Stop driving that, dump the car, and start driving
> our [car brand y], your problems will be solved"......
>
> 4. A tip. Any good product atracts users by itself. Marketing helps, but
> what this is reminds me of the telemarketeers calling me during dinner.
> There's more elegant ways to sell a product. I could tell you all about why
> marketing this way doesn't work, but you probably know that yourself.
>
> We are in good spirit with eachother, which I really enjoy, really, no
> worries, consider this tips and pointers. And anyway, shouldn't you be
> working on Away3D instead of sending emails ? I remember 2.0 was scheduled
> for half december (phun intended, don't kick me over this one.
> Guilty)....can't wait to see what you guys have been up to.
>
> Cheers,
> Ralph.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 22, 2007 7:56 PM, Rob Bateman <rob.bateman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > No problem Tim
> >
> > I'm not about to dispute what the words "Papervision3D list" refer to, i
> > just wanted to clear up any perception that this might have been done for
> > selfish reasons.
> >
> > Preparations for a 3d Flash list (or forum and online resource possibly)
> > have already begun. I'd be happy to announce on this list when such plans
> > are launched - as long as the list moderators consider such an announcement
> > relevant to the discussion ;)
> >
> > cheers comrade!
> >
> > Rob
> >
> >
> > On Dec 22, 2007 6:30 PM, Tim Knip <tim.knip at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Rob,
> > >
> > > I understand completely what you say, and I agree with you on all
> > > points... minus 1.
> > >
> > > My point simply is:
> > > This *still* is the Papervision3D list, where PV3D solutions / answers
> > > should be discussed.
> > > Away3D is not a Papervision3D solution. Its a Away3D solution.
> > >
> > > Now: if the PV3D list would be named "Flash3D", then I would totally
> > > agree with you.
> > >
> > > So... lets move on and create such a general Flash3D list. I'll be
> > > plugging such a list as much as I can.
> > >
> > > Anyway: this is a free world, so you may disagree :-)
> > > Just my 2 cents on what a 'mailing list' is.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Tim - apparatchik - Knip
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >  --
> > Rob Bateman
> > Flash Development & Consultancy
> >
> > rob.bateman at gmail.com
> > www.infiniteturtles.co.uk
> > www.away3d.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Papervision3D mailing list
> > Papervision3D at osflash.org
> > http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Ralph Hauwert
> _______________________________________________
> Papervision3D mailing list
> Papervision3D at osflash.org
> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>
>

-- 
Rob Bateman
Flash Development & Consultancy

rob.bateman at gmail.com
www.infiniteturtles.co.uk
www.away3d.com
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