[Papervision3D] pv3d v2 VS away3d

Tue Jun 17 02:24:52 PDT 2008

Thanks a lot Tom for pointing this out.

I actually just read the post from Andy but it looks like there's some issue
with recompiling the code... will try it anyway..

thanks

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 8:37 PM, Tom Richardson <kwarismian at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Effects has been merged into "normal" Great White.
>
> Things like floors should -always- be rendered in a different layer.
>
> Any of the engines are useful and powerful, but none of them are a
> replacement for good engineering on the developer's part.  As my good friend
> Benoit likes to say "Just cheese it."
>
> Powerful words.
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 2:02 PM, quinrou . <quinrou at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> what about when you have a floor/ground and all objects on that floor are
>> affected by it. I had to increase the number of polygons on that floor to
>> avoid the the z-sorting issue when it's not really necessary.
>>
>> At that point I am thinking it would be good to be able to set the floor
>> on a seperat layer since we know it's always going to be at the bottom to
>> avoid increasing its number of polygons. I read that is possible to do so
>> with the effect branch through the renderlayer but I would rather stick with
>> the "normal" GW.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Carlos Lunetta <carlos.lunetta at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>  My take on that is to try the least polygons possible to have a scene
>>> look good, textured and all.
>>>
>>> Find the "problem areas", go back to the 3d app, and
>>> subdivide/triangulate just that part a bit more.
>>>
>>> Try again; if other problems appear, improve just that bit.
>>>
>>> I guess it's not a matter of increasing the polygon count of the overall
>>> scene, just from the punctual issue areas.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> quinrou . wrote:
>>>
>>> John,
>>>
>>> what would be the tricks to apply to the model in order to fix z-sorting
>>> issues.
>>>
>>> i noticed that the more polygons i have to my shapes the less the issues
>>> I get. that means that the bigger the triangles the most likely the problem
>>> will be.
>>> the down fall of that is that it has an impact on the speed. it's the
>>> catch 22 really. realism or speed.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 3:43 PM, John Grden <neoriley at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> PV3D is about speed - bottom line.  z-sorting, as I've said before, can
>>>> be handled in modeling phase, but of course, having the ability to correct
>>>> at runtime is very cool for certain projects.  However, given the speed we
>>>> deal with on a daily basis and given how hard of a hit the CPU takes when
>>>> doing tessellation at runtime, I can hardly think of a use for it other than
>>>> product shots.  personally, it falls in the same category as shaders - nice
>>>> to have, but when would I realistically use it in a production app??
>>>>
>>>> That being said, we're working on a version of the engine that does
>>>> tessellation at runtime, and our goal is and always has been to make it as
>>>> fast as possible.  At the end of the day, with Flash being the player, it's
>>>> about speed.  If I can fix my sorting issues at the modeling phase by hand,
>>>> I'll do it every time to save on CPU.
>>>>
>>>> my 2cents.
>>>>
>>>> PS> the alternativa engine does have sorting issues if you know where to
>>>> look - like I've said before, they did a great job on the MODEL as well as
>>>> texturing.  Its a very smart, well done demo.  It's only when you stop that
>>>> it adds more geometry to the scene to make it look more high rez that I
>>>> could tell.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 8:42 AM, quinrou . <quinrou at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ryan thanks for the detail response, I appreciate it. I did look at the
>>>>> alternativa engine but unfortunately it's not open source as yet. I was
>>>>> indeed very impressed with their z-sorting which like you explained is
>>>>> nicely handled by the face redrawing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed you are right, PV3D is very good in term of effects and
>>>>> interactivities. Which is why it was my library of choice when I started to
>>>>> look at 3d libraries.
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 4:14 AM, Ryan Christensen [drawcode] <
>>>>> ryan at drawcode.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just an FYI due to the nature of the algorithms used to make 3d in
>>>>>> flash fast, z-sorting is a major issue and will be as long as software
>>>>>> rendering is around.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alternativa and Away seemed to have conquered this a bit better but
>>>>>> there are lots of benefits to papervision (the away branch from papervision
>>>>>> initially was influenced by the z sorting -- all it does really is at teh
>>>>>> point of intersectin it makes lots more polys at the possible overlap points
>>>>>> but again this is still faking out the issue - it also has some scalability
>>>>>> problems if there are lots and lots of things overlapping).  Alternativa
>>>>>> takes a similar approach onlyl redrawing polys on each view change (you can
>>>>>> see this in their demos by hitting t for the geometry
>>>>>> http://blog.alternativaplatform.com/ru/files/2008/04/bunker.swf --
>>>>>> they constantly redraw triangles to optimize it for the view).  Papervision
>>>>>> is the most known and largest community, it has lots of effects, interactive
>>>>>> objects, and integrates well into lots of marketing online, doesn't have the
>>>>>> optmizations for z ordering as much but again this can go back to how you
>>>>>> architect it or what you are using it for.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  It depends on what you are making really but no matter what the
>>>>>> z-sorting issue is either an expensive (performance) situation and or an
>>>>>> architectural problem in the way you are drawing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  There are ways to fake out the z issues with more polys but that also
>>>>>> presents more problems.  There are also ways to float things above other
>>>>>> things rather than drawing them right next to each other but this depends on
>>>>>> yoru camera situations and zoom levels needed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is one of those situational and almost religous choices it seems
>>>>>> that is still being solved.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This problem is not specific to flash but more to software rendered
>>>>>> engines which Flash is.  The limit it seems is around 2000-3000 polys that
>>>>>> can still run ok on older machines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alternativa handles it the best it seems to me from a z standpoint but
>>>>>> as far as the interactive objects, community and effects papervision is
>>>>>> best.  Again it goes back to what you are creating...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 1:09 PM, quinrou . <quinrou at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i meant in term of functionalities/features
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have been messing with pv3d gw for a while and the most annoying
>>>>>>> thing is the z-sorting issues I have experienced. so i was wondering if
>>>>>>> wondering if away3d had the same problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would really appreciate if anyone could give feedback on pros and
>>>>>>> cons.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 12:38 PM, Makc <makc.the.great at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the major difference is that pv3d is in the works, and away3d is
>>>>>>>> released.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 9:55 AM, quinrou . <quinrou at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> > Hi all,
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > I was wondering if anyone had enough knowledge with the engine to
>>>>>>>> be able to
>>>>>>>> > tell me what are the major difference between the two. pros and
>>>>>>>> cons?
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > thanks
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>  > _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  --
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Ryan Christensen
>>>>>> drawk.design and develop < drawk.com | drawcode.com >
>>>>>> ryan - @ - drawk - dot - com - 480 . 612 . 4957
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>>>>>
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>>>>
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