<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">As i said i think hardware acceleration would bring all flash users<br>performance improvement benefits, not just pro coders on creator side
<br>and high end computer owning users on audience side and i see it as<br>problem that this is ignored and ONLY those other ways i listed before<br>are applied.</blockquote><div><br>point taken. I think we're due quite frankly. Even Tinc Uro admits that there are elements of the flash 4 rasteriser still in the render code. It could to with a kick up the arse.
<br><br><blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">Which way do you think is more approaching a mainstream audience? A way<br>in which all gain propper performance without having to think too much
<br>about it or a way in which you ideally know how to deal with bitmapdata,<br>have indepth oop coding skills and enjoy to fiddle with how the garbage<br>collector works to gain some performance?</blockquote><div><br>well i think that's the holy grail for any language. It remains to be seen how Adobe manage with that one ;)
<br><br><br>Rob<br><br><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Dec 5, 2007 1:04 AM, tomsamson <<a href="mailto:blumenzuechter@gmx.de">blumenzuechter@gmx.de</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="Ih2E3d"> Sorry, but yes, i DO mind converting all my code to haxe or some other<br> language.<br><br><br>"Then don't. I was merely suggesting it as a way this is possible now.<br>Haxe is actually very similar to as3 - it's based on the same ECMA
<br>standards and the differences are cosmetic at most."<br><br></div>-->Yeah, np man, i donīt moan for you suggesting it, i moan for me<br>having to think about using such things cause flash/the player isnīt up<br>
to it in other ways.<br>If the day had 48 hours or i just had way less to do iīd love to play<br>with haxe and tons of other things, but yeah, neither is the case so<br>that iīd like to have the functionality in usual workflow with the flash
<br>related dev tools.<br><div class="Ih2E3d"><br> As i said, i think the major problem with all those manners to get<br> better performance in flash content<br> is that its alienating a huge part (in my eyes the majority) of the
<br> flash platform content creator community.<br><br><br>"fair enough. I would agree that if it's speed you're after with a game<br>etc, rather than requesting a bunch of low level commands to be<br>shoehorned into the next version of flash, just use something more
<br>powerful that's fit for purpose. "<br><br></div>-->Yeah, youīre probably right.<br>Maybe i just worked too long on all flash platform related stuff and am<br>sad of giving up on it easily.<br>While talking about it iīm not against getting more low level access to
<br>be able to get better performance or more functionality in general; iīm<br>against having lower level work manners as only option for getting<br>propper performance.<br>Which leads us to the next point:<br><div class="Ih2E3d">
<br>"I'm not a machine code guru, but i suspect the reason why lower level<br>commands are in faster languages is that they're necessary."<br><br></div>-->Yeah, sure, again, not speaking about having lower level
<br>functionality as additional bonus; speaking for having more options.<br><div class="Ih2E3d"><br><br> So yeah, because it doesnīt solve all issues but just some it shouldnīt<br> be done?<br><br><br>"umm, no. I was merely pointing out that you are not going to get stuff
<br>running as fast as desktop-based languages with a graphic upgrade, you<br>would require a subsequent code upgrade too. Which is a lot for Adobe to<br>concentrate on, especially when in a previous argument your saying that
<br>simply focussing on performace enhancing updates is alienating the flash<br>platform community. "<br><br></div>-->Iīm not asking for performance comparable to C++ apps (would be nice<br>but is just unrealistic with an interpreted language). Iīm not asking
<br>for Adobe raising the code execution performance at the same time<br>(within the same release) as boosting the display stuff handling<br>performance. Iīd be fine that since we got mostly code execution<br>improvements with the previous release the focus would now be on display
<br>handling improvements with the next release ;-)<br>I didnīt say<br><div class="Ih2E3d">"simply focussing on performace enhancing updates is alienating the<br>flash platform community. "<br></div>at all, thatīs nonsense stated like that.
<br>I said that i feel like performance raising is heavily required,<br>especially on display stuff handling side.<br>I also wanted to express that where i see the problem is in which ways<br>it is tried to gain performance and in which ones it is not tried. Most
<br>of the ways in which it is tried would be nice additional bonuses for<br>pro coders (AS3, lower level creation manners etc) and users with newer<br>systems (multi cores) .<br>As i said i think hardware acceleration would bring all flash users
<br>performance improvement benefits, not just pro coders on creator side<br>and high end computer owning users on audience side and i see it as<br>problem that this is ignored and ONLY those other ways i listed before<br>
are applied.<br>And yeah, if you donīt believe having to code in lower level coding<br>manners to get better performance going alienates a big chunk of the<br>flash community then check out how many people still use flash mx and
<br>how few in comparison as3 and how many long time flash platform content<br>creators donīt want to make the switch to AS3 and moan about it.<br>I think evolution is great but one should in between question oneself if<br>
the evolution is completely going into the right direction.<br>Which way do you think is more approaching a mainstream audience? A way<br>in which all gain propper performance without having to think too much<br>about it or a way in which you ideally know how to deal with bitmapdata,
<br>have indepth oop coding skills and enjoy to fiddle with how the garbage<br>collector works to gain some performance?<br><br>Anyway, wanted to reply to you but now iīll go check out the new pv3d<br>release, on that point weīre all united with the same opinion i guess :-)
<br><br><br>--<br>__________________________<br><div class="Ih2E3d">Ugur Ister aka Tomsamson<br>Co-Founder, Lead, Stimunation<br><a href="http://www.stimunationgames.com/" target="_blank">http://www.stimunationgames.com/</a>
<br><br>play some games:<br>-PowPool, 3D Billiard with a twist:<br> <a href="http://www.candystand.com/play.do?id=18201-KICKFLIP" target="_blank">http://www.candystand.com/play.do?id=18201<br>-KICKFLIP</a> Skateboarding:<br>
<a href="http://www.candystand.com/play.do?id=18111-JayIsAdventure" target="_blank">www.candystand.com/play.do?id=18111<br>-JayIsAdventure</a>, an oldschool adventure<br> game we made for a contest in 2 weeks:<br> <a href="http://jayisgames.com/cgdc4_redirect.php?gameID=20" target="_blank">
http://jayisgames.com/cgdc4_redirect.php?gameID=20</a><br><br><br><br>Rob Bateman wrote:<br></div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">> Holy crap!<br>><br>> ok, lets deal with this a step at a time....<br>><br>
> Sorry, but yes, i DO mind converting all my code to haxe or some<br>> other<br>> language.<br>><br>><br>> Then don't. I was merely suggesting it as a way this is possible now.<br>> Haxe is actually very similar to as3 - it's based on the same ECMA
<br>> standards and the differences are cosmetic at most.<br>><br>> As i said, i think the major problem with all those manners to get<br>> better performance in flash content<br>> is that its alienating a huge part (in my eyes the majority) of the
<br>> flash platform content creator community.<br>><br>><br>> fair enough. I would agree that if it's speed you're after with a game<br>> etc, rather than requesting a bunch of low level commands to be
<br>> shoehorned into the next version of flash, just use something more<br>> powerful that's fit for purpose.<br>><br>> It needs to get better performancewise, especially a lot better on<br>> display stuff handling side and yeah, it should keep its strengths
<br>> while<br>> doing so, not achieve it by forcing the developer to do things in<br>> lower<br>> level creation manners for every performance improvement.<br>> Otherwise its getting less and less a good choice compared to other
<br>> thing as time goes by.<br>><br>><br>> I'm not a machine code guru, but i suspect the reason why lower level<br>> commands are in faster languages is that they're necessary.<br>><br>> So yeah, because it doesnīt solve all issues but just some it
<br>> shouldnīt<br>> be done?<br>><br>><br>> umm, no. I was merely pointing out that you are not going to get stuff<br>> running as fast as desktop-based languages with a graphic upgrade, you<br>
> would require a subsequent code upgrade too. Which is a lot for Adobe<br>> to concentrate on, especially when in a previous argument your saying<br>> that simply focussing on performace enhancing updates is alienating
<br>> the flash platform community.<br>><br>> Rob<br>><br>><br>> On Dec 4, 2007 7:01 PM, tomsamson <<a href="mailto:blumenzuechter@gmx.de">blumenzuechter@gmx.de</a><br></div></div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:blumenzuechter@gmx.de">blumenzuechter@gmx.de</a>>> wrote:<br>><br>> "Opengl support is already possible with haxe and xinf (if you don't<br>> mind converting all your code to haxe)"
<br>><br>> Sorry, but yes, i DO mind converting all my code to haxe or some<br>> other<br>> language.<br>> If the bottom line comment to getting propper performance with flash<br>> content is always to learn another language (version) and working in
<br>> lower and lower level manners then i wonder why one should choose the<br>> flash platform in first place.<br>> And iīm talking about the flash platform as whole there.<br>> If you make a component based hippo hyped Ria, hooray, you can make
<br>> stuff in high level approach in bloated xml syntax or drag components<br>> around.<br>> For most other things, things where performance is vital, the solution<br>> with every version is "wanna performance, gotta do it lower level way,
<br>> just also takes more time, no worries"<br>> As i said, i think the major problem with all those manners to get<br>> better performance in flash content<br>><br>> (like having to deal with how the garbage collector works, strong data
<br>> typing, overall learning a more coder oriented lower level language<br>> version, doing everything in code only centric manner, ideally<br>> bitmapdata based instead of working visually in the flash ide, god
<br>> beware using movieclips etc)<br>><br>> is that its alienating a huge part (in my eyes the majority) of the<br>> flash platform content creator community.<br>><br>> Next up, yeah, it may attract a good chunk of java or some other
<br>> language coders to be able to work in more similar ways on flash<br>> content<br>> like they are used to from their previous language.<br>> But on the other side i think thereīs also a big chance that many pro
<br>> coders working with flash start to think: hey, so i have to code in<br>> manners as restrictive and time involving as in Java or C# etc but<br>> still<br>> the performance is so much worse than there (also the dev tools in
<br>> some<br>> cases), what about switching over to that other thing then instead?<br>> I know at least for offline content iīm already asking myself that<br>> question more and more often with newer flash platform dev
<br>> tool/language<br>> versions,<br>> and more and more also for online content.<br>> It needs to get better performancewise, especially a lot better on<br>> display stuff handling side and yeah, it should keep its strengths
<br>> while<br>> doing so, not achieve it by forcing the developer to do things in<br>> lower<br>> level creation manners for every performance improvement.<br>> Otherwise its getting less and less a good choice compared to other
<br>> thing as time goes by.<br>><br>> "<br>> As to my opinion on an opengl'ed flashplayer in the future - i<br>> think it<br>> is not the silver bullet some people try to make out. Sure the
<br>> graphical<br>> rendering would be much faster, but another bottleneck would crop up.<br>> Most likely the as3 avm, which is a snail compared to the c++ based<br>> opengl library. So speed issues would simply swing back to a coding
<br>> problem.<br>><br>> "<br>><br>> So yeah, because it doesnīt solve all issues but just some it<br>> shouldnīt<br>> be done?<br>> If it makes the code execution performance be the bottleneck end
<br>> again<br>> iīd be fine with that as iīd see it as great improvement if the flash<br>> player could handle the graphical side for all things smoothly<br>> which i<br>> can do with it nicely running on codeside; would be a great
<br>> advancment<br>> compared to the current state.<br>><br>> Iīd love to love the way the evolution of the flash platform goes but<br>> yeah, i think a lot of strengths are lost to gain some others.
<br>><br>><br>> --<br>> __________________________<br>> Ugur Ister aka Tomsamson<br>> Co-Founder, Lead, Stimunation<br>> <a href="http://www.stimunationgames.com/" target="_blank">
http://www.stimunationgames.com/</a><br>><br>> play some games:<br>> -PowPool, 3D Billiard with a twist:<br>> <a href="http://www.candystand.com/play.do?id=18201" target="_blank">http://www.candystand.com/play.do?id=18201
</a><br></div></div>> -KICKFLIP <<a href="http://www.candystand.com/play.do?id=18201-KICKFLIP" target="_blank">http://www.candystand.com/play.do?id=18201-KICKFLIP</a>><br><div class="Ih2E3d">> Skateboarding:
<br>> <a href="http://www.candystand.com/play.do?id=18111" target="_blank">www.candystand.com/play.do?id=18111</a><br>> -JayIsAdventure<br></div>> <<a href="http://www.candystand.com/play.do?id=18111-JayIsAdventure" target="_blank">
http://www.candystand.com/play.do?id=18111-JayIsAdventure</a>>, an<br><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">> oldschool adventure<br>> game we made for a contest in 2 weeks:<br>> <a href="http://jayisgames.com/cgdc4_redirect.php?gameID=20" target="_blank">
http://jayisgames.com/cgdc4_redirect.php?gameID=20</a><br>> <<a href="http://jayisgames.com/cgdc4_redirect.php?gameID=20" target="_blank">http://jayisgames.com/cgdc4_redirect.php?gameID=20</a>><br>><br>>
<br>><br>><br>> Rob Bateman wrote:<br>> > Opengl support is already possible with haxe and xinf (if you don't<br>> > mind converting all your code to haxe)<br>> ><br>> >
<a href="http://xinf.org/trac" target="_blank">http://xinf.org/trac</a><br>> ><br>> > <a href="http://haxe.org/" target="_blank">http://haxe.org/</a> <<a href="http://haxe.org/" target="_blank">http://haxe.org/
</a>><br>> ><br>> > haxe is basically a slightly different flavour of as3, and xinf<br>> is a<br>> > library that can be used to access opengl commands through neko (one<br>> > of the runtimes that haxe can compile to)
<br>> ><br>> > Now. Someone has already tried converting papervision to haxe here:<br>> ><br>> > <a href="http://hi.baidu.com/actionscript3/blog/category/Haxe" target="_blank">http://hi.baidu.com/actionscript3/blog/category/Haxe
</a><br>> ><br>> > but i'm not entirely sure of the details as the site is in<br>> Japanese.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > As to my opinion on an opengl'ed flashplayer in the future - i think
<br>> > it is not the silver bullet some people try to make out. Sure the<br>> > graphical rendering would be much faster, but another bottleneck<br>> would<br>> > crop up. Most likely the as3 avm, which is a snail compared to
<br>> the c++<br>> > based opengl library. So speed issues would simply swing back to a<br>> > coding problem.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > if people really can't wait for opengl in the browser, then
<br>> maybe try<br>> > the new opengl-es plugin here<br>> ><br>> > <a href="http://blog.vlad1.com/2007/11/26/canvas-3d-gl-power-web-style/" target="_blank">http://blog.vlad1.com/2007/11/26/canvas-3d-gl-power-web-style/
</a><br>> > < <a href="http://blog.vlad1.com/2007/11/26/canvas-3d-gl-power-web-style/" target="_blank">http://blog.vlad1.com/2007/11/26/canvas-3d-gl-power-web-style/</a>><br>> ><br>> > which utilises a new plugin available currently for firefox 3 beta.
<br>> > plans for opera, safari and ultimately iexplorer plugins are abound,<br>> > but at present unconfirmed.<br>> ><br>> > Rob<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>
> ><br>> > On Dec 3, 2007 10:36 PM, Jon Bradley < <a href="mailto:jbradley@postcentral.com">jbradley@postcentral.com</a><br>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:jbradley@postcentral.com">jbradley@postcentral.com
</a>><br></div></div>> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:jbradley@postcentral.com">jbradley@postcentral.com</a><br><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:jbradley@postcentral.com">
jbradley@postcentral.com</a>>>> wrote:<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > On Dec 3, 2007, at 2:07 PM, tomsamson wrote:<br>> ><br>> > > Personally i think graphic card support is more than
<br>> overdue for<br>> > flash<br>> > > now, as it shows most other attempts to gain performance are<br>> > more and<br>> > > more alienating the non pro coder sections of the flash
<br>> content<br>> > > creator<br>> > > community.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > It's not just graphic card support, it's OpenGL support. Not all<br>
> > graphic cards support OpenGL, and OpenGL implementation is<br>> not the<br>> > same across Mac/PC platforms.<br>> ><br>> > On the PC tip, Microsoft over the years has been piss poor in
<br>> > releasing libraries so that card developers can include<br>> proper GL<br>> > support on the cards (look at Windows Vista for a prime<br>> example of<br>> > poor OpenGL support - more than half the time it's not
<br>> available).<br>> > Microsoft pushes DirectX, not OpenGL.<br>> ><br>> > Secondly, you run into major compositing issues. OpenGL<br>> doesn't do<br>> > vectors natively, it renders polylines. It's not going to
<br>> have the<br>> > display quality of Flash. And, to mix the two environments<br>> is asking<br>> > for serious problems - a resolution independent display<br>> medium with a
<br>> > bitmap medium.<br>> ><br>> > While I absolutely agree that some type of hardware support<br>> would be<br>> > awesome in Flash, it would be a major undertaking that I can
<br>> > guarantee would be fraught with bugs and lead to significant<br>> > instability in the Flash Player across platforms.<br>> ><br>> > cheers,<br>> ><br>> > jon
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</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Papervision3D@osflash.org">Papervision3D@osflash.org</a>><br></div></div>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Papervision3D@osflash.org">Papervision3D@osflash.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Papervision3D@osflash.org">
Papervision3D@osflash.org</a>>><br><div class="Ih2E3d">> > <a href="http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org" target="_blank">http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
</a><br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > --<br>> > Rob Bateman<br>> > Flash Development & Consultancy<br>> ><br>> > <a href="mailto:rob.bateman@gmail.com">
rob.bateman@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:rob.bateman@gmail.com">rob.bateman@gmail.com</a>><br></div>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:rob.bateman@gmail.com">rob.bateman@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:rob.bateman@gmail.com">
rob.bateman@gmail.com</a>>><br><div class="Ih2E3d">> > <a href="http://www.infiniteturtles.co.uk" target="_blank">www.infiniteturtles.co.uk</a> <<a href="http://www.infiniteturtles.co.uk" target="_blank">
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Papervision3D@osflash.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Papervision3D@osflash.org">Papervision3D@osflash.org</a>><br>> <a href="http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org" target="_blank">http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
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<br>> Rob Bateman<br>> Flash Development & Consultancy<br>><br>> <a href="mailto:rob.bateman@gmail.com">rob.bateman@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:rob.bateman@gmail.com">rob.bateman@gmail.com</a>
><br>> <a href="http://www.infiniteturtles.co.uk" target="_blank">www.infiniteturtles.co.uk</a> <<a href="http://www.infiniteturtles.co.uk" target="_blank">http://www.infiniteturtles.co.uk</a>><br>> <a href="http://www.away3d.com" target="_blank">
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http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org</a><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Rob Bateman<br>Flash Development & Consultancy<br><br><a href="mailto:rob.bateman@gmail.com">
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