<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16850" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY text=#000000 bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=086365207-05072009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Hi Peter,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=086365207-05072009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=086365207-05072009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>We might have a difference in definitions (and I've heard
different people use different terms), but here's my take from my years as a 3D
engine developer:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=086365207-05072009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=086365207-05072009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I'm not sure what you mean by bump maps being 1 dimensional
displacement above or below the surface. You may be referring to two things. In
one case, from a grayscale (1-dim) bump map, you can easily compute a 3-dim
normal map. You just need to compute the slopes in X and Y at each
texel and do some cross product magic. You end up with a normal map (which
you explained quite well). This is useful to save on texture memory (3x smaller)
if you can afford the extra computations at render time, and is easier for
artists to draw.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=086365207-05072009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=086365207-05072009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>The second thing you may be referring to is
displacement mapping, and is way more powerful (and costly) than other
techniques. It requires re-tesselating your geometry in an adaptive way to
create new vertices where needed and displace them. You can start off from a
base model, and end up with a very detailed one by letting an artist simply
draw his displacement map. If you look at the model on the side, you'll see the
detail of the geometry (which you won't in normal mapping, as only the normal is
modified).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=086365207-05072009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=086365207-05072009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>To go back to the definitions, bump mapping generally
refers to the whole family of techniques to modify a geometry based on a map.
Normal mapping is one of them. Wikipedia explains this pretty
well.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=086365207-05072009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=086365207-05072009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2>Antoine Azar</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2>2XM Labs</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2>645 Wellington W.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2>Montreal, Quebec</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2>H3C 1T2, Canada</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2>T. 514-606-4821</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2><A
href="http://www.2xmlabs.com/">http://www.2xmlabs.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=left><IMG alt="" hspace=0 src="cid:086365207@05072009-0665"
align=baseline border=0></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> papervision3d-bounces@osflash.org
[mailto:papervision3d-bounces@osflash.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Peter
Strømberg<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July 04, 2009 7:32 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
papervision3d@osflash.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Papervision3D] PV3d vs.
Away3D - what the difference?BE SPECIFIC!<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>With respect Antoine, and at the risk of sounding pedantic, those
terms are not entirely synonymous, and while<BR>I'm sure you have a grasp of
the different techniques I'll try and explain the differences. <BR><BR>For
starters normal maps can be used for more than just texture.<BR>While you can
use normal maps on a model for "bumps", they are inherently 3 dimensional as
appose to a bump maps 1 dimension.<BR>That is to say they describe the
direction of a pixel, contra it's (one dimensional) displacement above or
below a given surface.<BR>While monochromatic bump maps create variation in a
reference face during lighting calcs, normals don't necessarily require a
reference face and can<BR>simulate geometry in a lighting model where no
geometry exists at all.<BR><BR>To illustrate, here's a 2D image with a normal
map applied. Because is contains the direction of each pixel, <BR>it is
possible to simulate lighting even though there is no geometry involved
whatsoever, or 3d engine for that matter.<BR><A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://www.videometry.net/ARdemo/normalMapper.html">http://www.videometry.net/ARdemo/normalMapper.html</A><BR>(and
the normal map used: <A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://www.videometry.net/ARdemo/norms.png">http://www.videometry.net/ARdemo/norms.png</A>)<BR><BR>Granted
in that example the normals were pre-calculated from a 3d model,<BR>so here's
the same filter applied to a simple photograph of an empty room <BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://www.videometry.net/ARdemo/normalMapperRoom.html">http://www.videometry.net/ARdemo/normalMapperRoom.html</A><BR>(normal
map drawn freehand in photoshop: <A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://www.videometry.net/ARdemo/3dplacementRoom_norms.png">http://www.videometry.net/ARdemo/3dplacementRoom_norms.png</A>)<BR><BR>How
would you do that with a bump map?<BR>While normal maps can do bump mapping,
bump maps don't have enough info on there own to calculate normals.
<BR><BR>Antoine Azar wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:B545D9BD-7600-42CF-ABCC-281C6C881942@2xmlabs.com
type="cite">Nice demo, but to clarify what you say, normal mapping IS bump
mapping.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2"><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2"><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2>Antoine Azar</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2>2XM Labs</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2>645 Wellington W.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2>Montreal, Quebec</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2>H3C 1T2, Canada</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2>T. 514-606-4821</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2><A href="http://www.2xmlabs.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.2xmlabs.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left> </DIV></SPAN>
<DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN><IMG height=70
src="cid:086365207@05072009-066C" width=450></SPAN>
</DIV></SPAN></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On 3-Jul-09, at 2:44 PM, Peter Strømberg wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">There's one difference that hasn't
been mentioned, but has proven to be of paramount importance to me, <BR>at
least for product presentation, and that is normal mapping. <BR>Away has
it, PV does not yet, though I've heard it mentioned a few times.<BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://away3d.com/away3d-normal-mapped-bust"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://away3d.com/away3d-normal-mapped-bust</A><BR><BR>Don't
confuse this with bump mapping, as I've seen people do. Normal mapping
makes a low poly model <BR>look like a high poly model, and the only "hit"
is an extra bitmap in the materials stack.<BR>While bump maps and normal
maps can add detail, normal mapping has the appearance to adding
geometry,<BR>especially to large smooth, rounded surfaces, not to mention
nipples.<BR><BR>For more info and examples google "Normal
Mapping"<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Pete(2)<BR><BR>andysk8er wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:24306699.post@talk.nabble.com type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Okay, I have been researching this and I can't find a definitive answer. What
is the main difference between PV3D and Away3D? Don't give me a bunch of
nebulous statements like "Papervision has more shaders" or "Away handles
Interactive materials better" or "PV is faster." What I really want to know
is this:
WHAT WAS EACH ENGINE BUILT FOR?
It looks like PV3D has a broad feature set that was intended mostly for
websites, applications and viewers.
Away looks like it was designed with making 3D games and game environments
in mind.
Is this true or am I off the mark? I don't really care about things like
"Away has a torus as a native object." I'm really just curious which engine
fits a certain type of project better than another. If I have a project
spec, how can I decide which engine to use?
I'm not trying to start any arguments about the engines. I'm very familiar
with Papervision and have built several projects in it. I haven't used
Away3D, but I'm starting to think that a few of it's features may be helpful
for a game I am designing in my spare time. Any advice from anyone here?
Thanks,
Andy.
</PRE><PRE wrap=""><HR width="90%" SIZE=4>
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://www.avg.com" moz-do-not-send="true">www.avg.com</A>
Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.2/2214 - Release Date: 07/02/09 05:54:00
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">--
PETER MCATOMINEY STRØMBERG
hyperGIS ApS
Helsingforsgade 27
8200 Århus N
Denmark
tlf: (0045) 70 20 04 03
mobile: (0045) 30 53 83 87
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://www.hypergis.com" moz-do-not-send="true">www.hypergis.com</A></PRE></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>Papervision3D
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:Papervision3D@osflash.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Papervision3D@osflash.org</A><BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org">http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV><PRE wrap=""><HR width="90%" SIZE=4>
_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:Papervision3D@osflash.org">Papervision3D@osflash.org</A>
<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org">http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org</A>
</PRE><PRE wrap=""><HR width="90%" SIZE=4>
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A>
Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.3/2217 - Release Date: 07/03/09 18:11:00
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">--
PETER MCATOMINEY STRØMBERG
hyperGIS ApS
Helsingforsgade 27
8200 Århus N
Denmark
tlf: (0045) 70 20 04 03
mobile: (0045) 30 53 83 87
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://www.hypergis.com">www.hypergis.com</A></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>